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HotTop -- When do you drop beans in?
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| snwcmpr |
Posted on 10/22/2011 09:21
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I asked someone at Sweet Marias why my kona had flat flavor, and the suggestion was to reduce my roast time.
So, instead of dropping beans in at 250 (oven temp) I started dropping beans in at 300, and I dropped the GREEN BEAN weight from 255 (9 oz) to 225 (8 oz).
Every roast I have done since is better (Subjective un-cupped testing)
Last week I tried dropping beans in at 350, and WOW!!! What more can I say. It is noticeably better. Now i drop them all in at 350. And until I see something not as well, I will keep doing that.
My local roaster, in Waynesville, drops beans in at 350 in his San Franciscan Roaster. Says he always has.
What temp do you drop beans in?
And how many grams do you roast?
Thanks,
Ken in NC
Backwoods Roaster
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| allenb |
Posted on 10/22/2011 17:26
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Fix It Man
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Hi Ken,
My roasting experience does not include the Hottop but my 1/2 lb and 1 lb drum roasters have ended up liking anywhere from 300 to 350F drop in temp. This seems to allow that initial kick during the first 2 minutes which I have found to be critical to achieving good development and complexity. Since most drum roasters don't have a store house of reserve heating capacity it's important to have a high enough start temp. I have also found many commercial drum roasters to preheat to around 350 before drop in.
With that said, there are probably some drum roaster designs that might do better with a lower or higher start temp.
With Kona and most low-growns you'll have a practical limit to how hot you can start and how high of a rate of rise without tipping and scorching.
Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| JimG |
Posted on 10/22/2011 18:28
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Moderator
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Joined: 10/23/2008 11:37
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I drop when my environmental sensor (bare bead TC, high in the roast chamber, adjacent to the bean load chute) reads 360F. This corresponds with a reading of a little less then 170F on the Hottop D rear wall sensor. This also happens to be when the Hottop beeps to indicate it thinks it's ready to go.
Where is your probe, and what kind is it?
Jim
EDIT - I normally roast 250g because I am greedy. A load of 225g actually roasts a little better.
Edited by JimG on 10/22/2011 18:29
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| UNM |
Posted on 10/23/2011 00:40
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Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: 09/11/2011 03:15
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Having recently added a couple of sensors, I have a better idea what is going on when I drop the beans in.
My Hottop beeps to add beans at 74C (165F) according to its own temp sensor.
I normally add beans at 84C (183F), at this time ET sensor at top of roast chamber is at 175C (350F), BT sensor at base of chamber is 102C (215F) and obviously the metalwork is still cooler as the built-in sensor reads lower.
I roast 250 (8.8oz) or 300g (10.6oz) beans at a time, depending on what I'm roasting and ambient temp. |
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| snwcmpr |
Posted on 10/23/2011 05:54
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JimG wrote:
Where is your probe, and what kind is it?.
A K-type 6" solid metal probe.
Mounted through a modified chute-cover.
Connected to the digital thermometer I got from Sweet Maria's.
The probe tip ends just above the drum, so it is dead center in the bean mass about an inch away from the rear wall.
I should say the drop temp is the temp the HotTop oven temp reads.
I don't put the probe in until I drop the beans in.
Edited by snwcmpr on 10/23/2011 06:40
Backwoods Roaster
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| ginny |
Posted on 10/23/2011 10:34
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OWNER
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Hi Ken and 
to HRO...
you mention Hot Top Basic, which one the original analog?
gin
Ala di Vittoria La Valentina,
Solis 5K, Aero Press, Mazzer Mini, Hot Top 8828 B 2K,
Quest 3, TC4C set up to use...
Sun-swept beaches with a light wind blowing...
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| snwcmpr |
Posted on 10/23/2011 18:41
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Posts: 227
Joined: 03/03/2011 09:11
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ginny wrote:
... you mention Hot Top Basic, which one the original analog?
gin
HotTop Basic - 2 ..... Digital, I guess, I don't know the old one.
I got it spring of this year.
Backwoods Roaster
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| tortillatree |
Posted on 10/26/2011 08:00
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Newbie
Posts: 10
Joined: 03/16/2010 18:32
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Keep in mind that there's a world of difference between dropping 10 pounds of mass into a commercial roaster vs 1/2 a pound. The reason you drop at 350 degrees on a commercial roaster is because the mass cools the temperature back down to 180...and then starts to climb back up. If I'm roasting 1/2 a pound in my commercial roaster I drop at 180, because the coffee doesn't have enough mass to effect the temperature of the drum.
You can get away with dropping beans in your hottop anytime from when it starts to beep up to maybe 200 degrees, but anything beyond that strikes me as strange. Fun to experiment, and apparently with good results, but... hmm... how long do the roasts end up lasting when you drop at 350? I can't imagine it even makes it 10 minutes.
BTW, I only roast 8 ounces at a time in it and feel it does a better job than the suggested 9 ounce..
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| snwcmpr |
Posted on 10/26/2011 09:48
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tortillatree wrote:
Fun to experiment, and apparently with good results, but... hmm... how long do the roasts end up lasting when you drop at 350? I can't imagine it even makes it 10 minutes.
12 to 13 Ending during second crack
Drop at 21:30 on the timer starting at 25;00.
Ends between 8:30 and 10 on the timer depending on how high I go with the heat.
BTW, I only roast 8 ounces at a time in it and feel it does a better job than the suggested 9 ounce..
Yes, I agree. Funny, that 8 - 10 is the suggested range.
9 or 10 are too many beans.
Backwoods Roaster
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| ciel-007 |
Posted on 05/27/2012 12:28
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Posts: 299
Joined: 04/03/2012 20:37
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snwcmpr wrote:
... instead of dropping beans in at 250 (oven temp) I started dropping beans in at 300... I tried dropping beans in at 350, and WOW!!! What more can I say. It is noticeably better...
Thanks Ken.
I just recently began roasting with a HotTop, and have always dropped the beans when the HT beeps me, and the control panel shows approx 170 F. At that point, the Bean Mass Temperature probe, that I recently installed on my HT, is showing approx 235 F. However, shortly after dropping the beans, the BMT probe readings drop all the way down to approx 140 F before climbing back up again).
Before your post, I had not given any thought to the option of waiting for much higher temperatures before the dropping in the beans; I am excited by the notion that roasting flavour can be enhanced by so doing. When you say that you are dropping the beans in the HT at 300 F or 350 F, would it be possible for you to clarify which temperature reading you are using please? Is it the temperature reading of the HT control panel, or the reading on the BMT probe?
Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in a cup with......................................................... EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLKÖNIG/Baratza Vario - GENE CAFE - HOTTOP KN8828P2 - HotTop KN8828B2
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| ginny |
Posted on 05/28/2012 14:06
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This is a difficult question since each HT used is in a different area of the world and has unique parameters for his/her roast.
that said, I dump between 170 (the built in time for the HT, any HT) to 250/325 depending on what I want from that bean that can only, for me, come from specific bean/roaster experience.
how long have I had the beans? is the roaster really at the temp the gauge says, what is the temp outside/inside?
do I really care or just want some fresh roasted?
(one of the reasons I loved my little fresh roast was because I could have beans to drink in 4 minutes start to finish (something to be said for fast and ready)
you will all say, "oh no, you cannot have beans right from the roaster to a cafe cream," wanna bet me?
some of the best espresso or cafe crema I have ever had has been from roaster to pull in the same 20 minutes.
sure sometimes it gets worse after a day or few days but who really cares when you had a goddess shot to begin with?
that's my story and I am sticking to it...
roast one folks.
I am 
bye, bye
Edited by ginny on 05/28/2012 22:45
Ala di Vittoria La Valentina,
Solis 5K, Aero Press, Mazzer Mini, Hot Top 8828 B 2K,
Quest 3, TC4C set up to use...
Sun-swept beaches with a light wind blowing...
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| snwcmpr |
Posted on 06/20/2012 08:54
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Posts: 227
Joined: 03/03/2011 09:11
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I have been away, busy, for a while.
To answer the last question .....
I have been dropping at 350, exactly, as read with the built in thermometer.
Depending on ambient temp, that may be 21:30 to 21:10 on the timer.
It drops to 334, about 1 1/2 minutes later is back to 350.
The BMT reads 170 - 195 1 1/2 minutes after drop, depending on ambient temp in the room. BMT is not accurate for a while after dropping, it needs to stabilize.
Since I started dropping at 350 ..... I haven't looked back, and may try dropping later.
It is about 4:30 - 5 minutes to dry (310 BMT), then another 4:30 - 5 minutes to !C. I usually dump at 435, but sometimes as low as 425, and as high as 445, and family members like 465. I do have a hard time getting 465 without the HT ejecting as the oven hits 428. But, I don't like dark roast, so I haven't experimented much to achieve that.
I do not trust the HT temp probe, and now see they upgraded to a new model. "K" style roaster.
Oh, and sometimes I brew within 20 minutes of roasting, and love it.
Ken
Backwoods Roaster
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| ciel-007 |
Posted on 06/20/2012 09:37
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Posts: 299
Joined: 04/03/2012 20:37
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Welcome back Ken, and thank you for the helpful follow-up. I shall experiment further with drop T, based on what you have kindly shared. Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in a cup with......................................................... EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLKÖNIG/Baratza Vario - GENE CAFE - HOTTOP KN8828P2 - HotTop KN8828B2
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| snwcmpr |
Posted on 06/20/2012 19:21
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Posts: 227
Joined: 03/03/2011 09:11
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Keep me posted.
Ken
Backwoods Roaster
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| ciel-007 |
Posted on 07/04/2012 06:35
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Posts: 299
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A 300F Drop
My roaster did not allow me to begin a new roast with roasting chamber temperatures (as shown on the built-in thermometer) above 165F. Further, it took about 8 minutes for the metal roasting chamber to reach the 300-350F range. In order to begin any new roast at such a high temperature, I had to make a few modifications to the roaster.
Yesterday, I conducted my first roast with the modified roaster, and a new roasting profile requiring me to drop the beans at 300F. Starting at this higher chamber temperature also allowed me to shorten the overall roasting time considerably.
This morning, I pulled my first shot using the beans from this new, shorter, higher temperature profile. First impressions? Well, it sure seems like I have a more flavorful cup. I am now encouraged to experiment further with what Ken suggests, and perhaps try dropping the beans at 350F or even beyond that.
Ciel... seeking Heaven in a cup with......................................................... EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLKÖNIG/Baratza Vario - GENE CAFE - HOTTOP KN8828P2 - HotTop KN8828B2
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| snwcmpr |
Posted on 07/19/2012 15:12
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Posts: 227
Joined: 03/03/2011 09:11
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I don't understand why you can't drop beans in at 300 or 350?
The timer starts at 167, but I am at 350 when the timer is about 21:30 (depending on ambient temp).
I finish roast at about 9:30 left on the timer.
I didn't modify anything but add a BMT probe.
I did try 375 drop for 2 roasts, the end time was the same.
The only part of the roast that changed was the time to dry (310).
After that it followed the same profile.
THE ADVANTAGE---- The time to dry was the same as the time to 1C. Previously the time to dry was longer even with the oven at 100 heat.
Ken
Backwoods Roaster
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| ciel-007 |
Posted on 07/20/2012 07:11
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Posts: 299
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Ken, thanks for the follow-up - it's much appreciated!
If you go to hottopusa.com and take a look at the owner’s manual for the KN8828P-2, you will see that this particualr model has the entire roasting cycle divided into 8 segments, each having 3 minutes, and each having narrow temperature ranges. Starting a roast at 350F or higher, places me at the bottom of segment 5 with insufficient time remaining to properly stretch the time interval between first and second cracks, which is critical for flavor development.
In order to solve the above annoyance, I modified my HT so that I can re-start it well above the 165F, which is the default starting temperature ceiling imposed by the manufacturer. With this modification, and the 350F starting temperature, I am enjoying the best coffee since I first began roasting.
This week, I will begin roasting with a KN28828B-2; the B-2 resembles your roaster, inasmuch as it will provide me with more manual control over the roast than the P-2 is capable of doing. Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in a cup with......................................................... EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLKÖNIG/Baratza Vario - GENE CAFE - HOTTOP KN8828P2 - HotTop KN8828B2
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| snwcmpr |
Posted on 07/20/2012 08:09
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Posts: 227
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I am so glad to hear that. I still do not understand the 167 start temp and up to 10 oz of beans. That would be such a long roast it would seem flat to me, based on what i do now.
Even Randy's suggestion to drop at 250 never worked out for me.
I am unfamiliar with the P model. That explains it. I am glad I got the B-2 model.
I have 1 drawback to the B-2 model. The profile can be saved, but not created.
I can't have a clean profile. When the fan comes on, I can turn it off, and at the end of the roast save that profile, but the fan on then off is saved forever.
Not a big deal, that moment doesn't change the roast, but just a quirk that is odd to me.
I also don't like that the high temp is 428. I don't like dark roasts, but it is really hard to do a dark roast without the beans being ejected before i am done.
Backwoods Roaster
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| ciel-007 |
Posted on 07/20/2012 09:09
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Posts: 299
Joined: 04/03/2012 20:37
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I have just now begun to experiment with the B-2, and understand some of your concerns. It looks like the modification I made to my HT in order to resolve the 165F limit at startup… might also be used to circumvent the 428F ceiling at the end of the roast.
Ciel... seeking Heaven in a cup with......................................................... EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLKÖNIG/Baratza Vario - GENE CAFE - HOTTOP KN8828P2 - HotTop KN8828B2
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| JimG |
Posted on 07/20/2012 12:44
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Joined: 10/23/2008 11:37
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ciel-007 wrote:
In order to solve the above annoyance, I modified my HT so that I can re-start it well above the 165F, which is the default starting temperature ceiling imposed by the manufacturer. With this modification, and the 350F starting temperature, I am enjoying the best coffee since I first began roasting.
Ciel -
I am very curious to know how you went about doing this? Thanks.
Jim |
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