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Post-Roast Rest
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| Right Lane |
Posted on 07/14/2012 17:49
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Newbie
Posts: 5
Joined: 06/17/2012 08:05
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I found something on the 'net today that came as news to me and I'm wondering what the thinking is here.
The party claims that s/he lets the fresh roasted beans sit in a coverless container - let's say its a jar - for 24-hours after roast. At 24-hours s/he then bags the beans in mylar with a one-way valve with all the air squeezed out.
I've allowed my beans to cool so that they can be handled and then I pop them into mylar with the one-way valve.
Is one of these 'the right way'?
Thanks ... RL |
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| ginny |
Posted on 07/14/2012 19:25
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Super Admin
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good post...
RL, there is no right or wrong way to rest your beans.
I would suggest you try multiple ways. each bean is totally different as well as your taste buds. there is a thread her someplace concerning this topic. maybe one of the others can remember where it is...
good luck,
ginny
Ala di Vittoria La Valentina,
Solis 5K, Aero Press, Mazzer Mini, Hot Top 8828 B 2K,
Quest 3, TC4C set up to use...
Sun-swept beaches with a light wind blowing...
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| ciel-007 |
Posted on 07/14/2012 19:58
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1/2 Pounder
Posts: 299
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Both methods will allow the fresh beans to de-gas over time. It's unlikely that your taste buds could tell the difference between them in a blind test.
Ciel... seeking Heaven in a cup with......................................................... EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLKÖNIG/Baratza Vario - GENE CAFE - HOTTOP KN8828P2 - HotTop KN8828B2
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| allenb |
Posted on 07/15/2012 07:57
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Fix It Man
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A couple of primary enemies of whole bean coffee is oxygen and moisture from humid air.
http://www.coffee...helf-life/
Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| ciel-007 |
Posted on 07/15/2012 08:00
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1/2 Pounder
Posts: 299
Joined: 04/03/2012 20:37
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Allen, thanks for the informative link.
Ciel... seeking Heaven in a cup with......................................................... EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLKÖNIG/Baratza Vario - GENE CAFE - HOTTOP KN8828P2 - HotTop KN8828B2
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| Koffee Kosmo |
Posted on 07/15/2012 16:59
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Super Admin
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Joined: 12/31/2008 06:49
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I have been conducting experiments on this very subject and will re post my conclusions
Over the last couple of months, mainly due to guests
I have had seen a jump in roasted been usage increase
This has caught me out on several occasions
As a preference I like to degas newly roasted beans for approx 5 days in a Mylar bag with one way valve
I have experimented to get the times down so please read on
Experiment one -
Leave in open air for 1 hour prior to packing in a - Mylar bag with one way valve
Result - No difference
Experiment two -
Leave in open air for 4 hours prior to packing in a - Mylar bag with one way valve
Result - the time taken for degas for a reasonable shot came down to 3 days of degas time
Experiment three - (and is currently ongoing now as I post and will conclude when the beans are all consumed)
Leave in open air for 24 hours prior to packing in a - Mylar bag with one way valve
Result - Coffee was consumed in 1 day after packing in bag
However it lacked [1] Body [2] Crema [3] some dominant flavours
I have also found that the beans needed an ever finer grind for espresso adjusted daily finer and finer to stop water like pours
Adding to that I have observed no Crema at the spouts of the PF but a thin layer in the cup
After a couple more days the coffee is tasting more like a bad cafe coffee
Conclusion -
Correct storage and rest time is very very important and should not be under estimated
KK
My web site > koffeekosmo.com.au I home roast and I like it :P
Blog - http://koffeekosm...gspot.com/
Bezzera BZ40:Bezzera Strega: BNZ MD74 Grinder: 6 Box hand grinders: Pullman Tamper Convex: (KKTO) Turbo Oven Home Roaster: CONA Glass Rod Syphon: Pyrex Brewer: |
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| yamhill |
Posted on 07/17/2012 12:55
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Posts: 93
Joined: 12/18/2009 22:16
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I read somewhere (and I thought it was here, but I can't find it) that the roast profile effects the amount of rest needed. As I remember, the comment was that a longer drying portion of the profile would decrease the need for rest. I ran some casual experiments with extended drying time on some beans that I'm familiar with, and it seemed to help. I need some more data points before I'm convinced.
What do you all think? How does the roast profile play into the amount of post-roast rest?
Also, if open rest of beans is beneficial, would open rest of ground coffee accomplish the same thing?
John |
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| John Despres |
Posted on 07/17/2012 14:32
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There's an informative article by Willem Boot in the March/April 2009 issue of "Roast Magazine" about rest and staling. It's a lot of science with a graph or two, but what it comes down to is the quality of coffee you want in your cup... Taste the coffee as it rests and keep notes.
Your tipping point from "tastes good" to "tastes like poo-poo" may be different from another tasters.
One interesting point mentioned is that roasted coffee does not really start de-gassing until about three hours after roasting.
Another point addresses John's question of roasting profiles. Darker roasted coffee has a softer, weaker cell structure and will release CO2 quicker than lighter roasts.
John
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
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| John Despres |
Posted on 07/17/2012 16:08
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Super Admin
Posts: 2083
Joined: 01/09/2008 07:55
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Forgot to mention - Regarding John's final question. The article says ground coffees de-gas much, much faster than whole beans.
Times are measured in hours instead of days -
In the chart provided, whole beans are fully stale in 2400 hours while drip grind coffee is fully stale in 1000 hours. Fine espresso ground coffee is stale in less than 400 hours.
Also note the article is written for shops that sell "fresh roasted" coffee, not for us with more discerning tastes. I think we may tend to more particular demands than the average coffee shop customer.
John
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
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| yamhill |
Posted on 07/17/2012 20:20
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1/4 Pounder
Posts: 93
Joined: 12/18/2009 22:16
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John,
Thanks for the details and the pointer to the article.
I hate to think what "fully stale" means - let alone half stale. I'm laughing to myself about the notion of "fully stale". It must mean that it can't get any worse. That sounds truly bad. I like your comment about the tipping point. I wonder how folks here compare to the population at large.
In more practical terms, say I finish a roast, pretty much immediately grind enough for a couple double shots, put it in a plastic bag, and extract it the next morning, 8-10 hours later. Per the rough numbers, seems like it could give a reasonable preview to the effect of a few days rest for the batch.
John |
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| John Despres |
Posted on 07/18/2012 03:27
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Super Admin
Posts: 2083
Joined: 01/09/2008 07:55
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I think you'll be disappointed in the pre-ground coffee versus brewing freshly ground in your espresso. A lot of volatile aromatics are released the moment coffee is ground and the sooner you get them into your brew, the better, as they will continue to be released over time. Saving those aromatics in a plastic bag will not put them in your portafilter, though. They will smell awesome when you open the bag, though, I'm sure.
It's true the coffee will de-gas quicker, but I think you may be wasting your roasting efforts.
However, it's worth a try and I hope you'll let us know. Go ahead and pre-grind, storing in a plastic bag. The next morning, brew a shot of the pre-ground as well as a shot of fresh ground to compare. There are some who say espresso needs to be brewed within 15 seconds of grinding for optimum flavor. Personally, I can't tell the difference between 15 seconds and a few minutes, but I'm working on it. I'll bet 8-10 hours may make a difference.
Degassing and flavor development rest are different. Both occur at the same time, but the flavors of the over 1000 substances and compounds (800 or so have been identified by name) will continue to change and develop. A ten day rested Yemen (a personal favorite) makes a killer shot, while a 2 day rest affords a rather nasty, sharp, acidic brew with no bottom notes to speak of.
There is precious little known and written about what exactly goes on as a coffee rests. Roasting activates the myriad of bits in the bean and it continues beyond the confines of the roaster. It's sort of like that chilli or stew you made over the weekend that tastes so much better a couple days later.
As to how we compare to regular folk, well, we are superior.
John
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
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| ginny |
Posted on 07/18/2012 07:24
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OWNER
Posts: 2762
Joined: 10/24/2005 11:33
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Never pre grind your espresso or any other beans for that matter; John is correct that you ar wasting a lot of your efforts and tasting coffee that is not really fresh.
ginny
Ala di Vittoria La Valentina,
Solis 5K, Aero Press, Mazzer Mini, Hot Top 8828 B 2K,
Quest 3, TC4C set up to use...
Sun-swept beaches with a light wind blowing...
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| yamhill |
Posted on 07/18/2012 12:34
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1/4 Pounder
Posts: 93
Joined: 12/18/2009 22:16
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I always grind immediately before espresso extraction or any other type of coffee preparation. That being said, I've had some shocking taste and brewing experiences using coffee without enough rest. I like quick feedback and I would value a shortcut to understand the post-rest taste.
I've never tried packaged ground espresso - at least not at home and not on purpose, but I might add a night before grind test to my list of experiments.
How do you all tell what direction the flavors will take following rest? Do you have some rules of thumb that let you taste a pre-rest roast and know how it will taste later? Also, can you tell pre-rest how much rest is needed - without having already gone through the cycle with the same beans?
John |
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| Koffee Kosmo |
Posted on 07/19/2012 01:21
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Super Admin
Posts: 1046
Joined: 12/31/2008 06:49
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Most problems in my experience noted in my post above is -
Humidity related
Beans love to suck/absorb humidity up
It changes everything
KK
My web site > koffeekosmo.com.au I home roast and I like it :P
Blog - http://koffeekosm...gspot.com/
Bezzera BZ40:Bezzera Strega: BNZ MD74 Grinder: 6 Box hand grinders: Pullman Tamper Convex: (KKTO) Turbo Oven Home Roaster: CONA Glass Rod Syphon: Pyrex Brewer: |
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| John Despres |
Posted on 07/19/2012 05:27
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Super Admin
Posts: 2083
Joined: 01/09/2008 07:55
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yamhill wrote:
I always grind immediately before espresso extraction or any other type of coffee preparation. That being said, I've had some shocking taste and brewing experiences using coffee without enough rest. I like quick feedback and I would value a shortcut to understand the post-rest taste.
I've never tried packaged ground espresso - at least not at home and not on purpose, but I might add a night before grind test to my list of experiments.
How do you all tell what direction the flavors will take following rest? Do you have some rules of thumb that let you taste a pre-rest roast and know how it will taste later? Also, can you tell pre-rest how much rest is needed - without having already gone through the cycle with the same beans?
John
Sorry, John, I have no skills tasting a freshly roasted coffee and forecasting what it will taste like in several days.
Thom Owen at Sweet Maria's is able to do so with freshly roasted samples. If you buy your coffee from him, there are notes for each green that give indication of what they will taste like. Studying those will help. Whenever I buy from him, I print his note sheet to keep with the coffee.
JD
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
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| yamhill |
Posted on 07/19/2012 11:39
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1/4 Pounder
Posts: 93
Joined: 12/18/2009 22:16
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John Despres wrote:
Sorry, John, I have no skills tasting a freshly roasted coffee and forecasting what it will taste like in several days.
Thom Owen at Sweet Maria's is able to do so with freshly roasted samples. If you buy your coffee from him, there are notes for each green that give indication of what they will taste like. Studying those will help. Whenever I buy from him, I print his note sheet to keep with the coffee.
JD
I like his notes too. I've watched many of his videos and read a bunch of his stuff, but I haven't decoded the rest effect prediction logic.
John |
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| durgaprasadzone |
Posted on 03/02/2013 00:14
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Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: 02/21/2013 01:05
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Thanks for sharing information. Actually I had also the same question in mind for a long time anyways you started this thread & I am so happy.
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thanks for joining.
for you