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PID'ed Gas-fired fluid bed roaster
tamarian
Top  #1 Print Post
Posted on 08/13/2013 5:52 AM
I'm converting my PID'ed 1kg electric fluid bed roaster to a PID'ed gas-fired fluid bed roaster. As the electric roaster already exists and functioning with 100+ roasts under it's belt, the required tasks are:

1. Source and test what's is needed to have a PID controllable gas valve
2. Build a new gas heating chamber with the torch, pilot and sight glass window, roast chamber remains as is
3. Wire the controls. I will maintain the electric heating element controls and PID, just to have the dual option. So it will be a screw in gas pipe, and a screw in electric heating pipe. Blower and roasting chamber are also screwed in pipes.
4. Fine tune the whole solution to controlled, PID'ed roasting. Hopefully it's as simple as auto-tuning the PID

Having been tipped by Allen to the key word to look for "Proportional valve" (and reading about his Kelly Pneumatic valve), I found Clippard's EVP valves, then found it will not work on Fuji's VDC output, so I got their driver board as well. (There is an alternative solution Allen told me about, by Rustic Roaster, to enable the use of an SSR).

After tuning the driver board to my Fuji's output range, it seems to work. The video sound may not show it, but I can detect flame changes with minor increases in the PID output. Here's a video:

Edited by tamarian on 08/13/2013 6:02 AM
Wa'il. 1 Kg PID'ed gas-fired fluid bed roaster, GS/3MPS, K10F
 
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tamarian
Top  #2 Print Post
Posted on 08/13/2013 8:30 AM
The Electric version is documented here:
http://forum.home...owstart=20

One thing I sadly want to mention, check Kelly's valves and others first. I had no help from Clippard. They keep telling me to contact the dealer (they sent me to Florida's distributor, since that's my forwarding mail address). The distributor was helpful in stating they will forward my questions to Clippard, but nothing came back. So if you have to use them, ask before you buy.
Edited by tamarian on 08/13/2013 8:36 AM
Wa'il. 1 Kg PID'ed gas-fired fluid bed roaster, GS/3MPS, K10F
 
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allenb
Top  #3 Print Post
Posted on 08/13/2013 6:58 PM
Very cool! It looks like you're going to have great control with the setup. I like the way you're going to be able to convert back and forth between electric and gas.

Did the Clippard board allow you to dial in a minimum output so your valve starts to open as soon as your PID controller starts increasing voltage in it's 0 to 10 span?

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
tamarian
Top  #4 Print Post
Posted on 08/13/2013 7:20 PM
Thanks Allen and yes, they have 3 screws for tuning, one to dial in 0.1v as a minimum for for the green status light, second screw to set "almost closed" for low limit voltage and a third screw to set "max open" for high limit voltage. A couple of jumpers to set the mode for various voltage or current ranges. Thankfully on line docs were good.
Wa'il. 1 Kg PID'ed gas-fired fluid bed roaster, GS/3MPS, K10F
 
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roastedgourd
Top  #5 Print Post
Posted on 08/13/2013 9:07 PM
This is very interesting to me as I'm hoping to do this in the future. Thanks for blazing the trail!
-Ian
 
tamarian
Top  #6 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 3:08 AM
Thanks Ian!

Here are pictures of the pipes to be assembeled:

1. Motor pipe, 6"

forum.homeroasters.org/forum/attachments/20130818_104949_hdr.jpg

2. Gas heating pipe, 4"

forum.homeroasters.org/forum/attachments/20130818_105022_hdr.jpg

3. Old roast chamber pipe 4"

forum.homeroasters.org/forum/attachments/20130818_105042_hdr.jpg

Becoming this:

forum.homeroasters.org/forum/attachments/20130818_105617_hdr.jpg

Which would go onto the old cart, dumping directly onto the exhaust fan cooler.
tamarian attached the following images:
20130818_105617_hdr.jpg 20130818_105042_hdr.jpg 20130818_105022_hdr.jpg 20130818_104949_hdr.jpg
Edited by tamarian on 08/18/2013 3:13 AM
Wa'il. 1 Kg PID'ed gas-fired fluid bed roaster, GS/3MPS, K10F
 
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Dan
Top  #7 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 6:36 AM
That's exciting progress. It makes me want to build a PID'd gas roaster!
1 pound electric sample roaster, 3 pound direct-flame roaster, both handmade; modified Mazzer Mini grinder, LaSpaziale Vivaldi II automatic espresso machine. When the electricity goes out I make vacpot coffee from beans ground on my Zassenhaus hand grinder, and heat the water with a teakettle on the gas range.
 
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jkoll42
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Posted on 08/18/2013 7:59 AM
What sort of cost are you looking at for the valve/pid etc? Very cool build
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, ECM Synchronika w/ Flow Control
 
tamarian
Top  #9 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 8:21 AM
Thanks Dan and Jkoll!

Valve/PID costs: Clippard proportional valve: $53; Clippard EVP driver: around $150 (can be skipped with a DIY SSR driver by RusticRoaster and Allen); Fuji PXG4 (VDC output option): $250.
Wa'il. 1 Kg PID'ed gas-fired fluid bed roaster, GS/3MPS, K10F
 
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coffeeroastersclub
Top  #10 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 8:24 AM

Quote

tamarian wrote:

Thanks Ian!

Here are pictures of the pipes to be assembeled:

1. Motor pipe, 6"

forum.homeroasters.org/forum/attachments/20130818_104949_hdr.jpg

2. Gas heating pipe, 4"

forum.homeroasters.org/forum/attachments/20130818_105022_hdr.jpg

3. Old roast chamber pipe 4"

forum.homeroasters.org/forum/attachments/20130818_105042_hdr.jpg

Becoming this:

forum.homeroasters.org/forum/attachments/20130818_105617_hdr.jpg

Which would go onto the old cart, dumping directly onto the exhaust fan cooler.


Prior to any roasts you may want to really let that burner go for a bit at full blast (if safely done) to burn off any galvanized material in/on that pipe. Preferably outdoors of course. You do not want any of that stuff in your beans. And it is not safe to breathe the gases formed from heating the stuff, from what I have heard.

Len
Edited by coffeeroastersclub on 08/18/2013 8:32 AM
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." ~Abraham Lincoln
 
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Dan
Top  #11 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 8:56 AM
That's a good point Len. Zinc oxide is mildly toxic. If you've welded any you know it'll make you dizzy. And, it might not be an issue, it all depends on the temperature the zinc experiences. Zinc melts at 786?F and oxides at about 900?F. You'll know if your temperatures are high enough to oxidize the zinc if you see white powder inside the pipe (zinc oxide is also used as white pigment). For future reference, black pipe or exhaust tube would be a better choice.
1 pound electric sample roaster, 3 pound direct-flame roaster, both handmade; modified Mazzer Mini grinder, LaSpaziale Vivaldi II automatic espresso machine. When the electricity goes out I make vacpot coffee from beans ground on my Zassenhaus hand grinder, and heat the water with a teakettle on the gas range.
 
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tamarian
Top  #12 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 10:25 AM
Thanks Len and Dan, I have not thought about it, probably because I've used the roast chamber for over a year without noticing any signs of oxidization. But the heating chamber will be much hotter. Not sure if it will reach 786F, but will try to heat it up and see what happens. Is the galvanization on the outside or inside? Here's what the inside looks:
tamarian attached the following image:
img-20130818-wa0004.jpg
Wa'il. 1 Kg PID'ed gas-fired fluid bed roaster, GS/3MPS, K10F
 
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Dan
Top  #13 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 10:33 AM
Good to hear you've done OK so far. Galvanizing is on all sides. The pipe (or other item) is dipped in a bath of molten zinc. Just run it hot and check for white powder. The zinc issue comes up a lot, but roasting temperatures don't come near enough to make it a problem, but in your combustion chamber that might not be the case.
1 pound electric sample roaster, 3 pound direct-flame roaster, both handmade; modified Mazzer Mini grinder, LaSpaziale Vivaldi II automatic espresso machine. When the electricity goes out I make vacpot coffee from beans ground on my Zassenhaus hand grinder, and heat the water with a teakettle on the gas range.
 
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allenb
Top  #14 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 4:03 PM
Very nice and built to last for at least 3 generations past you! I like the fact you can simply unscrew the heating section to swap from gas to electric and reverse order, very cool.

Looking forward to seeing flames and beans browning! BBQ grill

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
allenb
Top  #15 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 4:05 PM
Oh, BTW, your building code must be different than where I live.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
jkoll42
Top  #16 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 4:13 PM

Quote

allenb wrote:

Oh, BTW, your building code must be different than where I live.

Allen


The shallow steps?
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, ECM Synchronika w/ Flow Control
 
allenb
Top  #17 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 4:29 PM
No but your in the right area.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
JackH
Top  #18 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 4:38 PM
No railings?
---Jack

KKTO Roaster.
 
coffeeroastersclub
Top  #19 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 4:40 PM

Quote

JackH wrote:

No railings?


I was just going to jump in and suggest the same thing.

Grin

Len
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." ~Abraham Lincoln
 
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allenb
Top  #20 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 4:45 PM
That's the one! But now that you mention it, the step height is a bit shallow.

Tamarian, sorry to take this thread off into knocking your stairs and and code inspectors! No more digressing I promise! Shock

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
tamarian
Top  #21 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 4:52 PM
That's perfectly fine, we don't have code inspectors here in Riyadh. This whole basement wasn't even in the blueprint. Grin
Wa'il. 1 Kg PID'ed gas-fired fluid bed roaster, GS/3MPS, K10F
 
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Dan
Top  #22 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 5:43 PM
It always surprises me that the capital of Saudi Arabia isn't on the coast, but in the middle of the desert. You should probably have a good source for Yemeni coffee, right?
1 pound electric sample roaster, 3 pound direct-flame roaster, both handmade; modified Mazzer Mini grinder, LaSpaziale Vivaldi II automatic espresso machine. When the electricity goes out I make vacpot coffee from beans ground on my Zassenhaus hand grinder, and heat the water with a teakettle on the gas range.
 
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jkoll42
Top  #23 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 7:12 PM
It still blows my mind the diversity of homeroasters we have here.
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, ECM Synchronika w/ Flow Control
 
tamarian
Top  #24 Print Post
Posted on 08/18/2013 11:06 PM

Quote

Dan wrote:

It always surprises me that the capital of Saudi Arabia isn't on the coast, but in the middle of the desert. You should probably have a good source for Yemeni coffee, right?


I should, but unfortunately, coffee merchants here don't understand or care about green coffee storage, and with the dry weather and heat we get here, it won't last a month in storage before paling to past crop.
Wa'il. 1 Kg PID'ed gas-fired fluid bed roaster, GS/3MPS, K10F
 
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BryanG
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Posted on 09/04/2013 7:44 PM
as my build moves forward, this is very interesting. It would be great to be able to create profile programs and then let the machine adjust heat and air flow as parameters are met.

Doing a quick search it seems like the boys that are doing home brewing may be doing some of this already, although, it seems their situation is easier with on and off of heat to maintain fluid temps. Our scenario is more complex as we want to alter the flow of gas to change gas temps ... interesting.
 
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