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Homeroasters - Home Roasting Coffee Community » ESPRESSO MACHINES » ALL ABOUT ESPRESSO MACHINES

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No Subject aka semi auto super etc...
boar_d_laze	#1 Posted on 02/15/2015 10:33 AM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 181 Joined: May 28, 2013	To each her or his own. Superautomatics are not created equal. There's a continuum which goes from very good (as superautos go) to lousy. I don't like them as a class. Some of them have pretty good espresso machines, very few have decent grinders, and all of them have the grinder in the worst possible place. But it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. If you like your superautomatic, if it works for you, that's jake with me. Coffee is an aesthetic pursuit, surely we can embrace different styles without the need to draw judgments about what's best for everyone. Ginny's favorite drink is a cafe crema... I couldn't make a good one to save my life. She pushes a button and the right stuff, stuff she loves, goes into the cup. What's wrong with that? The espresso machine world isn't divided into superautomatic and manual. There are four broad classes of machines: Manual, Semi-automatic, Automatic, and Superautomatic. In addition, there are a few machines which straddle classes and might be called hybrids; for instance the Baratza Strega (pump/semiautomatc), and Breville Oracle (automatic/super automatic). Manual machines are also know as levers; and with very few exceptions, like the Strega, don't have an electric pump anywhere in the extraction loop. Semiautomatics, automatics, and superautomatics are all pump driven. Automatc machines are like semiautomatics, in that they require the barsita to prep the shot, etc.. They're difference in that once the barista begins the shot, an automatic machine can shut the shot without further input, while a semiautomatic requires the barista to stop the pump with a switch. All (nearly all?) automatics may be operated as semiautomatics. I almost always cut the shots on my M21, judging extraction level by eye. I had two Pasquini Livia 90s (both semiautomatic), buying my first within a few months of when came out (1994?). My M21, purchased in 2010, is a considerably "better" machine. However, "better" falls in the areas of ease of operation, steam power, production capacities, and so on. After a certain level of machine competence what's in the cup is all beans, technique, and grinder. GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER Rich Edited by ginny on 02/16/2015 6:42 AM USRC 1lb Roaster, Chemex+Kone, Espro, Various FPs, Royal Siphon Vacuum, Yama Ice Drip Tower, Bunnzilla, La Cimbali M21 Casa, Ceado E92. CookFoodGood


ginny	#2 Posted on 02/16/2015 7:16 AM
Founder Posts: 3476 Joined: October 24, 2005	Clearly all are not created equal and I did not want to elude to that... I sent back 3 super autos before I settled on the Miele CM 5K. have used multiple semi-autos over the years that friends have, some were wonderful and others not so good... Rich is correct that all of these machines are not created equal at all. Quote All (nearly all?) automatics may be operated as semi automatics. I almost always cut the shots on my M21, judging extraction level by eye. the above is true and I more or less do what Rich does. my grinder is a Mazzer Mini. huge world of machines to choose from and you need to test them yourself before you decide. Rich, thanks for the thread. ginny


boar_d_laze	#3 Posted on 02/16/2015 8:54 AM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 181 Joined: May 28, 2013	Wow Ginny! You use your superautomatic as a semiautomatic by grinding with an outboard grinder and cutting your shots by eye? How do you handle dosing prep? Do you just dump your grinds into the machine? Or is there distribution, finger wiping, tamping, and all that stuff? In any case you're talking about more barista involvement with a superauto than I'd heard of before. It's great the way people find their own ways. But of course, HRO is all about that. Vive la difference! Rich USRC 1lb Roaster, Chemex+Kone, Espro, Various FPs, Royal Siphon Vacuum, Yama Ice Drip Tower, Bunnzilla, La Cimbali M21 Casa, Ceado E92. CookFoodGood


ginny	#4 Posted on 02/16/2015 9:22 AM
Founder Posts: 3476 Joined: October 24, 2005	Rich: gotta go back and read what I wrote as I may have mixed up machines. no, my superauto is just that, period though I can single dose it with any grind I may want. more later... ginny


turtle	#5 Posted on 02/16/2015 11:00 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 652 Joined: November 06, 2013	Now you are making me want to move on from my Pasquini Livia 90 auto (not SUPER auto, just auto dose). I came this close to getting a Conti single portafilter machine. I MEAN this close. The wife asked me "in what way would it be different/better than the one you have now" Since both were single/double dose automatics the only difference I could come up with was double boiler, plumbed in/out, auto pre-infuse, and warm up time (the Pasquini is a cold b!+?h and takes a good 1.5 to 2 hours to get to stable temp). In the end there was not enough to make the move interesting or worthwhile AND I am glad she asks these tough questions. SO... The Pasquini and I are still fighting out every morning. I have to burp it, flush it, and wait for it until IT is ready, otherwise endure a few off first shots. I have gotten in the routine of making a 2 cup Chemex to drink while I wait for the espresso machine.... Sad but necessary. You know you are a coffee fanatic when you must have a cup of coffee while you wait for your coffee....... Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time" "I'd rather be roasting coffee" Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1 Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+ Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3) Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials) Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto Vacuum: Cona - Bodum Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia


ciel-007	#6 Posted on 02/18/2015 9:49 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 651 Joined: April 03, 2012	Quote turtle wrote: ... the Pasquini is a cold b!+?h and takes a good 1.5 to 2 hours to get to stable temp ... The Pasquini and I are still fighting out every morning. I have to burp it, flush it, and wait for it until IT is ready, otherwise endure a few off first shots... On a cold winter morning, my Expobar Brewtus allows me to pull something "drinkable" (not the best) in about 12 minutes or so after the power switch has been turned ON. With its powerful 1200 watt boiler and it's resilient electrical system, your Livia 90 should be able to produce a drinkable (not the best) pull in about the same period. If it does not, I suspect there might possibly be a faulty/intermittent electrical connection feeding the heating element. My Brewtus is going on nine years; earlier this year it began experiencing intermittent heating, not unlike your Livia. I spend a few hours looking for defective components, but all tested well. However, here is what I discovered in the process. The high levels of heat building up over years of use (or abuse?) had caused oxidation on the copper connectors of the thermostat sitting atop of the steam boiler. Disconnecting those electrical wires and cleaning the contacts enabled the Brewtus to return to its typically excellent functioning. Mick, it may be worth your while to take a look at the electrical contacts inside your Livia. You might possibly find evidence of oxidation on some of the electrical connections in the vicinity of the boiler, or possibly other areas where high levels of heat are accumulating. Ciel Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101


turtle	#7 Posted on 02/18/2015 11:09 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 652 Joined: November 06, 2013	I may be stretching it a little when I say 1 to 2 hours as I have never really timed it. This morning I waited about 30 minutes for our first shot and the espresso was nice, very nice indeed, but the second pull a half hour later was better. The third pull in another hour will be about as good as that machine can make. The boiler heating element is 1200 watt which is typical for home prosumer machines. This is really not an issue with me but it does give me something to complain about (just being snobbish) I've rebuilt the Livia from the ground up as I purchased it as a "does not work" machine (just like I did my Hottop and my San Franciscan roasters). The problem with the Livia is one of design not function. The head group is welded to the boiler. The plate is a rather thick chunk of brass so it just takes a bit of time for the thick boiler to heat, transfer that heat down the thick head group plate to the brew head. They corrected this decency in the latest release of the products by installing a pre-heater to the head group which is "supposed" to make heat up time quicker. I've not seen one of the newer version in person so can only say that anything in the way of pre-heating the head group would be an improvement. Once the machine comes to stable temp it does not fluctuate and is perfect from that point forward The construction of the machine is top shelf and there was not any skimping on the internals. When I rebuild the machine I needed to replace the pump and 3 way valve. I used a more robust valve and a full brass pump. I also wrapped the boiler in a "blanket". All of this was an improvement and I can hasten the headgroup heat up time by flowing brew water through it while I wait for things to warm up. This brings hot water to the other side of the group plate to start it warming from both sides which speeds things up. The only thing I wish I would have done when I rebuilt the machine was to replace the original pressure stat with a PID. When it first starts to warm the boiler heater turns off before things get hot as I can open the steam wand and the pressure drops to zero then starts heating again. I call this "burping" as it clears the pressure out of the boiler to allow the valve to close and the burner to turn back on. Only takes 2-3 "burps" to get the boiler at a stable temp so things can start heating. I really can't complain as I do not have much $$ into the Livia and it does make an acceptable pull once it gets hot. I replaced a Francis Francis x5 with the Livia which was a quantum leap in taste with a lot less hassle, though the FF did heat up in well under 30 minutes because of the extremely small boiler and the head group being the bottom of the actual boiler itself. You can see the head group plate welded to the top of the boiler in these pics of the Pasquini which should help you understand the time it takes for this machine to get stable. Edited by turtle on 02/18/2015 11:23 AM Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time" "I'd rather be roasting coffee" Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1 Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+ Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3) Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials) Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto Vacuum: Cona - Bodum Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia


boar_d_laze	#8 Posted on 02/18/2015 3:31 PM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 181 Joined: May 28, 2013	The Livia 90 has a vacuum breaker valve on the boiler, and shouldn't require "burping." Yours apparently needs rebuilding or replacement. Breakers screw out and in; new ones run $20 ish. A Livia 90 with a functioning breaker should take no more than 45 minutes to fully temp. You can cut the time down substantially if you urn a little water through the group once the boiler is up to pressure. Waiting for the group to fully heat up isn't really much of an issue. The biggest problem with the Livia is how quickly the group overheats during short idles between pulls. Rich Edited by boar_d_laze on 02/18/2015 3:36 PM USRC 1lb Roaster, Chemex+Kone, Espro, Various FPs, Royal Siphon Vacuum, Yama Ice Drip Tower, Bunnzilla, La Cimbali M21 Casa, Ceado E92. CookFoodGood


turtle	#9 Posted on 02/18/2015 4:14 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 652 Joined: November 06, 2013	Thanks for the heads up on the breaker valve Rich. I need to take it back apart to see how the blanket is working out since it has been a couple years that the boiler has been wrapped. I'll put in a new breaker at that time. The machine came from a very high mineral content region so I'm nor surprised to find more parts of it crusted up and not working. I always flush the brew water before pulling shots (even the first one). It does get steam through if it is not flushed but once a good solid flow starts it works fine. Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time" "I'd rather be roasting coffee" Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1 Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+ Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3) Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials) Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto Vacuum: Cona - Bodum Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia


ciel-007	#10 Posted on 02/18/2015 9:59 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 651 Joined: April 03, 2012	Quote turtle wrote: ... The problem with the Livia is one of design not function. The head group is welded to the boiler. The plate is a rather thick chunk of brass so it just takes a bit of time for the thick boiler to heat... The construction of the machine is top shelf and there was not any skimping on the internals... Mick, thanks for posting photos of the Livia. It's interesting to see that the manufacturer of this expensive and reliable machine would choose to weld parts together, rather than use bolts and gaskets. Might welding be a way of reducing manufacturing costs (fewer parts)? Or, might welding be a way of increasing reliability down the road (avoiding potential leaks from aging gaskets, etc...)? In any event, that's one impressive looking exchanger/boiler assembly! Ciel Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101


turtle	#11 Posted on 02/19/2015 9:20 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 652 Joined: November 06, 2013	Quote ciel-007 wrote: Quote turtle wrote: ... The problem with the Livia is one of design not function. The head group is welded to the boiler. Mick, thanks for posting photos of the Livia. It's interesting to see that the manufacturer of this expensive and reliable machine would choose to weld parts together, rather than use bolts and gaskets. Might welding be a way of reducing manufacturing costs (fewer parts)? Or, might welding be a way of increasing reliability down the road (avoiding potential leaks from aging gaskets, etc...)? In any event, that's one impressive looking exchanger/boiler assembly! Ciel I suppose I did not take the time to describe as accurately as I should have, sorry about that The head group bolts onto the large brass plate that is welded to the brass boiler. I am sure they weld it for heat transfer reasons (try to make the head group attach to the boiler via the welded plate). It is not the best design but it allows for a very small footprint which is the reason I chose the Pasquini. The wife did not want a massive espresso machine in the kitchen as she had become used to the small Francis Francis and a "normal" machine was 2 or 3 times the size of that little tike. The Livia 90 has its quirks but nothing that is a game changer for me. If I am patient and wait for it to heat up properly (and flush before each pull) I can get an acceptable shot of espresso. It is the small size that will keep it around for me more than the performance. It is a bit larger than the Francis Francis but I enjoy using it far more than the older FF X5 as it is far less quirky. Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time" "I'd rather be roasting coffee" Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1 Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+ Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3) Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials) Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto Vacuum: Cona - Bodum Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia


ciel-007	#12 Posted on 02/19/2015 9:53 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 651 Joined: April 03, 2012	Quote turtle wrote: I've rebuilt the Livia from the ground up as I purchased it as a "does not work" machine (just like I did my Hottop and my San Franciscan roasters). Mick, what an exemplary approach you bring to HRO: ... buying some of the best machines (in their classes) at bargain prices... ... restoring them to meet (and exceed) their original specifications... ... having a wonderful time operating them with great proficiency... ... while savoring some of the very best coffee available anywhere on this planet WOW! Could it possibly get much better than that for any HRO member? Ciel Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101


turtle	#13 Posted on 02/19/2015 10:09 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 652 Joined: November 06, 2013	Quote ciel-007 wrote: Quote turtle wrote: I've rebuilt the Livia from the ground up as I purchased it as a "does not work" machine (just like I did my Hottop and my San Franciscan roasters). Mick, what an exemplary approach you bring to HRO: ... buying some of the best machines (in their classes) at bargain prices... ... restoring them to meet (and exceed) their original specifications... ... having a wonderful time operating them with great proficiency... ... while savoring some of the very best coffee available anywhere on this planet WOW! Could it possibly get much better than that for any HRO member? Ciel Sometimes I wonder if I will finish a project. I should have more parts here for the San Franciscan today. 3/4" greenlee punch for the larger cord and connecting the 3 separate control boxes together with 3/4" conduit/clamps. The 30 amp relay should be here today also. Then I can take it all back apart and start re-wiring and hook up the internals. I did not get the 4 wire plug on the outside of the house and now there is enough snow that part will need to be shelved until some of it melts and it warms up above freezing before I go out and start punching holes in the block wall. I need to drill/tap the front plate for the BT probe. I did not think it would take me this long to get it up and running. Glad I did not sell the Hottop so I can keep roasting while I keep restoring the other roaster. <sigh> I do enjoy playing inside all of these wonderful appliances. It gives me a greater appreciation of the design, engineering, and construction that went into them rather than being just a user of them. Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time" "I'd rather be roasting coffee" Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1 Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+ Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3) Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials) Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto Vacuum: Cona - Bodum Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia


ciel-007	#14 Posted on 02/19/2015 11:43 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 651 Joined: April 03, 2012	Quote turtle wrote: ... I do enjoy playing inside all of these wonderful appliances. It gives me a greater appreciation of the design, engineering, and construction that went into them rather than being just a user of them... I share your sense of appreciation for excellence in design and fabrication. Further, it is such an amazing feeling to experience success in the quest to modify and further enhance those "wonderful appliances". Ciel Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101

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