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Homeroasters - Home Roasting Coffee Community » DATALOGGERS - CONTROLLERS - RATE OF RISE METERS » Dataloggers/Controllers/Rate of Rise Meters

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TC4 Wiring Help
CharcoalRoaster	#1 Posted on 05/14/2019 7:52 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 634 Joined: April 13, 2012	I'm trying to finish up wiring my TC4 so I can test out my larger FB roaster. I have a couple of quick questions for those of you who have installed one on your roaster - (1) Optional 10k Potentiometer -- should I install these or not? I know they're optional but has anyone not included them in their original build and then gone back and installed them because they found they wanted full analog control? (2) My blower is an AC Vac Motor and I have these two controllers at my disposal -- https://www.amazo...&psc=1 https://www.tindi...50hz-60hz/ I used the one from Amazon because it made for sense with the wiring diagram furnished by GreenCardigan. However, if I recall correctly I don't need a ZCD since I have an AC Motor vs a DC Motor. Can I still use this controller or do I need to swap it out with the one from Tindie? Thanks!


mg512	#2 Posted on 05/14/2019 8:32 AM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 189 Joined: March 04, 2018	(1) I'll let others comment on that, as I've always used full PID control myself. But I'll note that you can still do full manual control through Artisan - the Potentiometers do exactly the same as the sliders in Artisan, i.e. both go through the Arduino. They aren't "analog" other than that the value of the Potentiometer is read through the Arduino's ADC. (2) Either should work, but the wiring and software configuration would be different. To be clear, it's precisely with an AC motor that you need a ZCD or similar, not with DC. But both of the controllers you linked include a ZCD: * The RobotDyn is essentially a ZCD and a random-fire SSR on one board. You would wire and configure it more or less as you would a ZCD and random-fire SSR: The Z-C pin on the controller would go to IO2 or IO3, and the PWM pin would go to IO10 - that is essentially OT2, but bypassing the SSR driver (since the controller doesn't need one). You would configure aArtisanQ_PID in PAC mode. I haven't tried this board myself, this is just as far as I understand the information available online. * The PWM AC Light Dimmer Module on Tindie is a ZCD, random-fire SSR, and a small microcontroller, all on one board. The difference is that this controller processes the Zero-Crossing signal on-board, as opposed to having the Arduino handle it. You would only need to connect the PWM port to IO3. And you would configure aArtisanQ_PID (or even plain aArtisan) in PWM mode, as the board behaves like a PWM device from the Arduino's point of view. I've got one of these myself and from my brief testing it works well.
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CharcoalRoaster	#3 Posted on 05/14/2019 9:47 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 634 Joined: April 13, 2012	Thanks! Ok, I will skip the potentiometers then. Thanks for the clarification as clearly I was understanding things backwards in regard to AC/DC and the necessity of ZCD. I'll probably go with the Tindie controller then as it seems like the wiring/configuration is a bit simpler/more straightforward.


greencardigan	#4 Posted on 05/14/2019 7:02 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 1178 Joined: November 21, 2010	I've tried the Tindie board and wasn't happy with it's performance. It works, but randomly jumps to full power for a fraction of a second. Almost like it's loses sync with the 50hz AC for a bit. A replacement board is the same. However, I recommend you try it. I have tried the RobotDyn board. As Matthias mentioned it will need to connect to the TC4 czero cross input. However the pulse width coming out of this board may be different to the ZCD board JimG designed(?). Not sure how that will affect the timing done in the Arduino if at all. Re the potentiometers, I use mine a bit even though I am currently using Artisan. Sometimes i want to run the blower before or after I get Artisan running. Just to test bean circulation or during cleaning etc.


mg512	#5 Posted on 05/15/2019 4:23 AM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 189 Joined: March 04, 2018	Quote greencardigan wrote: I've tried the Tindie board and wasn't happy with it's performance. It works, but randomly jumps to full power for a fraction of a second. Almost like it's loses sync with the 50hz AC for a bit. A replacement board is the same. However, I recommend you try it. I have tried the RobotDyn board. As Matthias mentioned it will need to connect to the TC4 czero cross input. However the pulse width coming out of this board may be different to the ZCD board JimG designed(?). Not sure how that will affect the timing done in the Arduino if at all. Re the potentiometers, I use mine a bit even though I am currently using Artisan. Sometimes i want to run the blower before or after I get Artisan running. Just to test bean circulation or during cleaning etc. Oh, even the replacement board was doing that? Huh. That is strange. Did the developer offer any thoughts on the issue? I wonder why mine didn't seem to show that behaviour at all. There's a few other similar board on Tindie, might be worth trying those, in case that one doesn't work.
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mg512	#6 Posted on 05/15/2019 4:40 AM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 189 Joined: March 04, 2018	Quote mg512 wrote: Oh, even the replacement board was doing that? Huh. That is strange. Did the developer offer any thoughts on the issue? I wonder why mine didn't seem to show that behaviour at all. There's a few other similar board on Tindie, might be worth trying those, in case that one doesn't work. Wait! Actually, now that you mention this again... I have noticed recently that it occasionally sounds like my DC (!) fan is speeding up intermittently in the middle of a roast. I hadn't looked into it further since I only noticed a couple of times, and I wasn't sure it wasn't just my imagination - I usually have it at 80% duty cycle for roasting, so the difference in noise to 100% is audible, but kinda subtle. But now that you mention it, it actually would make sense, and it would suggest the problem might be with the PWM signal from the Arduino, not the dimmer board. I've also only noticed this recently, after I tested out a few different versions of aArtisan and aArtisanQ_PID trying to debug PID issues. So it could be software-related, possibly only happening with aArtisanQ_PID, not aArtisan. I think I also used plain aArtisan when I tested the dimmer board, which would also fit that. It's strange though, since the fast PWM on IO3 is just using analogWrite(), which I thought then did the PWM in hardware. So unless somewhere else in the code explicitly called analogWrite to set the PWM duty cycle to 100%, it should be unlikely that that gets messed up. The slow-PWM code for OT1 uses some low-level timing registers, but if that were the cause, the problem would show in plain aArtisan too. Maybe the PAC mode code in aArtisanQ_PID does something similar? But that shouldn't even be compiled into the binary in CONFIG_PWM mode, right? edit: Ah, I just saw that aArtisanQ_PID uses the PWM16 library for PWM on IO3, not analogWrite(). This seems to still use analogWrite() internally, but also changes some of the timer registers. Could that cause an issue somehow? Edited by mg512 on 05/15/2019 5:36 AM
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greencardigan	#7 Posted on 05/15/2019 6:44 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 1178 Joined: November 21, 2010	I'll have to test it again using a simple sketch doing analogue write. I found it much more noticible around 20% to 40%. When I was powering an incandescent light it was flickering very slightly then occasionally flashing bright. I was using hardware PWM on a Raspberry pi for some of my testing and it was definitely flickering a bit with that too.


BenKeith	#8 Posted on 05/15/2019 2:35 PM
Pounder Posts: 485 Joined: April 21, 2014	If you don't connect the pots, you might want to consider installing 10k pull down resistors in their place, I have TC4 boards I run both ways, a couple with and a couple without the 10K pots. Sometimes the ones without did strange things until I put the 10K resistors in. If you want to run one as a stand alone board with Brads software, you will need the pots.


mg512	#9 Posted on 05/15/2019 4:49 PM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 189 Joined: March 04, 2018	Quote greencardigan wrote: I'll have to test it again using a simple sketch doing analogue write. I found it much more noticible around 20% to 40%. When I was powering an incandescent light it was flickering very slightly then occasionally flashing bright. I was using hardware PWM on a Raspberry pi for some of my testing and it was definitely flickering a bit with that too. Interesting. If it happens with a Raspberry Pi too, that would likely rule out a software issue. I'll try again myself with aArtisanQ_PID, and 20-40%, to be sure. Quote BenKeith wrote: If you don't connect the pots, you might want to consider installing 10k pull down resistors in their place, I have TC4 boards I run both ways, a couple with and a couple without the 10K pots. Sometimes the ones without did strange things until I put the 10K resistors in. If you want to run one as a stand alone board with Brads software, you will need the pots. Any chance you had the analog potentiometers still enabled in user.h? If so, I could imagine the pulldowns making a difference. But you should be able to just disable the potentiometers altogether.
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CharcoalRoaster	#10 Posted on 05/15/2019 7:33 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 634 Joined: April 13, 2012	Quote BenKeith wrote: If you don't connect the pots, you might want to consider installing 10k pull down resistors in their place, I have TC4 boards I run both ways, a couple with and a couple without the 10K pots. Sometimes the ones without did strange things until I put the 10K resistors in. If you want to run one as a stand alone board with Brads software, you will need the pots. I went ahead and ordered a couple from Amazon. Shouldn't take too much time to install and if it helps avoid any functionality issues from arising then the $10 is worth it IMO I'm using Brad's board with and Arduino and the controller referenced earlier Cheers


BenKeith	#11 Posted on 05/15/2019 7:52 PM
Pounder Posts: 485 Joined: April 21, 2014	the pots were disabled in user h. when not connected. Jim was the one that told me to use the pull downs when the pots were not connected somewhere back in version 5 or so. I've just used them ever since when not using pots.


JackH	#12 Posted on 05/16/2019 3:03 AM
Administrator Posts: 1809 Joined: May 10, 2011	Floating inputs can act as an antenna for noise, etc. It is probably a good idea to tie them down if unused. ---Jack KKTO Roaster.


CharcoalRoaster	#13 Posted on 05/16/2019 6:11 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 634 Joined: April 13, 2012	Quote JackH wrote: Floating inputs can act as an antenna for noise, etc. It is probably a good idea to tie them down if unused. Meaning use pull downs or installed pots (even if unused)? Or meaning installed but unused pots?


JackH	#14 Posted on 05/17/2019 2:48 AM
Administrator Posts: 1809 Joined: May 10, 2011	Either would work but I would just add resistors to keep the cost down. ---Jack KKTO Roaster.


CharcoalRoaster	#15 Posted on 05/21/2019 10:19 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 634 Joined: April 13, 2012	On a slightly different note, I'm trying to ensure proper safety protocols before I plug in the control panel and fire up the roaster for the first time. What is the failsafe mechanism while utilizing SSR's, TC4, Arduino, ZCD, etc.? Is is the SSR that acts sort of like a breaker or should I install a breaker prior to the GFCI outlets I'll be drawing power from? Or something else I haven't thought of? Thanks


renatoa	#16 Posted on 05/21/2019 11:15 AM
Administrator Posts: 2588 Joined: September 30, 2016	A SSR don't act as a breaker, conversely, a "fired" SSR is a shortcut, so permanent 100% power. A fuse on the heater circuit is good to be, but only as a fire hazard insurance, will not save the SSR. If a short occurs in the heater area, the SSR will crash before the fuse. I am afraid TC4 does not include any failsafe mechanism. You can use MAX_OT1 as a prevention measure though... set it as low as needed for the darkest roast you intend. MAX_OT1 can be used also to be sure never exceed 270 C maximum advisable ET. In TC4ESP I included this check, if ET reach this limit the power is capped whatever being the value PID is trying to output.


BenKeith	#17 Posted on 05/21/2019 3:58 PM
Pounder Posts: 485 Joined: April 21, 2014	SSR's are nothing but an electronic switch the ranges from being on all the time, to being turned on and off very quickly to be turned off all the time. If you are not comfortable with what you have fire it up in two different stages. Start by running the TC4 and SSRs first buy connecting something like a 100W light bulb/lamp to them first. Then fire up the TC4 and make sure it controls the lights, Should be able to turn them on and off and dim them down to a slow flicker. If you can do that, you should be good to go and ready to connect the roasters fan and heating element to them. Also, as mentioned, the only safety devises you will have are those you install yourself. You can install a large enough fuse or circuit breaker, or use a outlet that has the size circuit breaker you want on it.


CharcoalRoaster	#18 Posted on 05/21/2019 6:00 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 634 Joined: April 13, 2012	Thanks for all the info -- I've been following a wiring diagram from Brad and didn't see any circuit breakers or fuses so that's why I was asking. For the most part I trust my wiring but want to double check to see what others have used. The outlets are wired to appropriate breakers and if they trip fine. I was more concerned with frying all my PCB's!


mg512	#19 Posted on 05/22/2019 3:22 AM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 189 Joined: March 04, 2018	Quote CharcoalRoaster wrote: Thanks for all the info -- I've been following a wiring diagram from Brad and didn't see any circuit breakers or fuses so that's why I was asking. For the most part I trust my wiring but want to double check to see what others have used. The outlets are wired to appropriate breakers and if they trip fine. I was more concerned with frying all my PCB's! The PCB should be protected - the SSR optically isolates the control side from the AC side. On my setup, I have a thermal fuse on the heating element for fire safety. I have a GFCI and circuit breaker in the house wiring. And I have earthed all metal parts.
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CharcoalRoaster	#20 Posted on 05/22/2019 8:24 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 634 Joined: April 13, 2012	Ok perfect. I've got a GFCI receptacle on the AC Fan and will be running my heating element through a GFCI Spa Panel breaker leftover from a homebrew build that didn't pan out. Thanks for bringing up the grounding of metal parts -- I was going to ask in a separate thread abut proper grounding. My heating element is enclosed in an Ammo Can and connects up to the Aluminum RC via triclamp sanitary fittings. What is the best way to ground all of these elements?


mg512	#21 Posted on 05/22/2019 9:34 AM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 189 Joined: March 04, 2018	On my popcorn machine, all metal parts had an earth wire screwed onto them. Ring terminal crimped on the wire, M3 nut and bolt to attach it to the part. I've simply left this untouched, maybe others can chime in on how to best go about it if you're starting from scratch. In any case, make sure you tie it to earth ground (the green and yellow cable coming from the mains power), NOT circuit ground (like GND an Arduino). There also seems to be a difference between countries on what appears to be standard practice. On my Gaggia espresso machine, all the metal casing is earthed, but on a US 110V version of the same machine, there was no earthing at all, just a 2-pin plug. I don't know if that's because of the different voltage, or different legislation, or if there's differences in how mains is wired in these countries. Might be worth asking a local electrician for advice, if in doubt.
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CharcoalRoaster	#22 Posted on 05/24/2019 3:29 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 634 Joined: April 13, 2012	I'm trying to ensure I have the sequence on the wiring for the fan and heat correct for my control panel. In order to provide power coming from the AC Line In to the various components can I utilize a buss bar (one for line and one for neutral)? Meaning, if I run my line in to power a buss then split off lines for ZCD, SSR, fan, and heating element will this work or is there a specific way/order to ensure proper functioning of the TC4? Otherwise I'm having a hard time figuring out how to split off AC for the ZCD from the line in, connect the blower lines and split off to the AC side of my SSRs.


mg512	#23 Posted on 05/25/2019 12:09 AM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 189 Joined: March 04, 2018	That should work. Anything that allows you to connect all the AC components in parallel should do. I simply crimped two wires onto a tab connector. To be clear, you shouldn't need separate lines for the SSR and heater - the SSR goes in series with the heater, like a switch. Same for the random-fire SSR and the AC fan. So in your setup you would have three lines: ZCD, heater (+SSR), fan (+SSR).
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CharcoalRoaster	#24 Posted on 05/25/2019 6:53 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 634 Joined: April 13, 2012	I have two separate AC lines in -- (1) 240v 30a = heater (2) 120v 20a = fan Currently I have the 120v line into the buss with fan, SSR, and ZCD all wired to the bus (line + neutral on separate terminals of course), but if I understand you correctly I'll need a third AC line dedicated for the ZCD? In order that... (1) Line-in > Heater > SSR > TC4 (series) (2) Line-in > Fan > SSR > TC4 (series) (3) Line-in > ZCD > TC4 (series) If I've got that right then would you mind clarifying what you mean by "Anything that allows you to connect all the AC components in parallel should do."? Thanks again!


CK	#25 Posted on 05/25/2019 4:07 PM
1/2 Pounder Posts: 237 Joined: December 07, 2018	Here is an image of how the transparent roaster is wired with a TC4, ZCD, and SSRs. I run the roaster off 3 outlets (one outlet each; fan, heat1, heat2) and everything is working fine. CK attached the following image:

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