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Can I do this with Artisan? If so, how?
oldgrumpus
Top  #1 Print Post
Posted on 02/10/2025 11:28 PM
Although I use Artisan, I'm not so good when it comes to the "inner workings" of the program. I'd like to do some experimenting but don't know how to go about it. In principle, it's simple. I'd simply like to use a solid state relay (SSR) to close the contact when the temperature is below "the line" (the bean temp at any location along the timeline). When the temp is above the line, I'd like the SSR to be off. In this way the SSR would be acting in similar fashion to a simple thermostat. The difference is that as the roast progresses, the temperature set-point is increased as we follow the background roast profile's bean temp.

It all seems clear to me. I just hope it's clear to whomever reads this. Maybe this video would help. I believe that is exactly what is happening in this video. https://youtu.be/...P1R9vImlFn
They're not using Artisan, but that's not important. Observe the way the heat goes on and off, crossing the line, back and forth. I've asked a similar question quite some time ago in this thread but what I'm after this time is related to the control method. Can I just use Artisan to act as a controller for and SSR? If so, exactly how is it done. Explain it like I'm 12 years old. smile
https://homeroast...post_76128
 
renatoa
Top  #2 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/2025 8:07 AM
First, In your Config menu, Device... dialog, you should check Control checkbox.
The effect will be the appearance of a new button, labelled Control, right to the START button.

Next step is to load a background profile: Roast menu, Background... Load, and browse for a previous roast you want to use as reference. Or a template roast created using the Designer tool.

Next, press the Control button, to reveal the PID Control dialog.
Here things are a bit more complicate, because the screen changes depending on your temperature device... and machine style, gas or electric.
Will sketch an explanation only for the parts that are common to most devices or not dependent to hardware:

- Start PID on Charge checkbox... if checked the magic will start when pressing Charge, or when Charge event is auto-detected by Artisan.
If unchecked you should manually start/stop the SSR control during roast using the On/Off buttons.
Even if checkbox is checked, you can further use Off button as a panic button, or resume with On, when calmed down smile

Set Value frame
- Mode should be background, to use the loaded profile as a source for setpoints
- lookahead can be used to compensate for the machine inertia... if your curve is ... 20 seconds... behind desired profile, then dial lookahead 20, to force using as setpoints temperatures in the future, instead current points.
- everything else in that frame should be as in the picture, set and forget about them.

Duty frame boxes can have any values, because you don't use a proportional control, but On-Off relay style.

PID frame
ki and kd have to be zero for On-Off
Kp requires a detailed discussion... basically it should be set according to your machine Off action delay.
But in this moment we don't know how really is your SSR actuated... who controls SSR input to act as on-off ?
Let's assume, hypothetical, that we have a PC output that controls the SSR, and the on-off switching will happen in the middle of this output range, at a value we consider to be 50%
The PID formula, for the P parameter only, is as follows: Output = Error * kP
This means that the control output value will reach 50% when Error is 5 degrees, if the kP parameter is 10, as in the image.
At that moment, at 5 degrees under the curve, the SSR will switch off because the control output will step from 50% to 49%, triggering the SSR to off state.
The big question is... how much is the machine thermal inertia at that moment ? Is the accumulated heat enough to drive those 5 degrees up, toward desired profile ?
If not enough, then temperature will increase some... 2-3 degrees, then cooling, until 5 degrees error level reached, when the SSR will be switched ON again... and the profile will never be crossed, your roast curve staying in a band some degrees under the desired target.
In this case you should increase the kP parameter, to decrease the error band, according to your machine inertia.
This parameter action is similar to lookahead explained above, they can be combined for the smoothest possible profile following.

And finally, Target frame, is about the mapping between a physical actuator device (SSR) and one of the four virtual control devices managed by Artisan: Burner, Dumper, Air and Drum... for positive (under the curve) and negative (above) scenarios.
In the image, Burner could mean anything... is defined by the interface between the PC and the SSR. Could be a valve for gas, or a signal line driving the SSR, etc. any physical thing you can imagine that is related to heating control.
For temperatures above the curve, maybe you want a forced cooling action... you can select Air from the Negative list, if you have an interface to control the roaster fan.
In our example there is no action for Negative errors, it is assumed that the machine will cool naturally, when the SSR is off.

Let's see how confusing are things now Shock
~~~
renatoa attached the following image:
image_2025-02-11_153827572.png
Edited by renatoa on 02/12/2025 3:06 AM
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #3 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/2025 9:01 AM
Wow! Thank you Renatoa! This is perfect! I very much appreciate this and the time you spent on such a clear and detailed answer. I will be busy with this for quite a while!
Edited by oldgrumpus on 02/11/2025 9:26 AM
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #4 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/2025 1:01 PM

Quote

renatoa wrote:
But in this moment we don't know how really is your SSR actuated... who controls its input to act as on-off ?


I have a solenoid valve in the system that is always ON during the roast. Gas level during roast is determined by a manually operated needle valve. In "PID preheat mode" there is a cheap PID which acts as a thermostat during pre-heat. This PID has a dedicated temperature sensor that is independent of Artisan. There are two sensors that are dedicated to Artisan for BT and ET.

Artisan sensors are connected to Phidget then USB to PC.

So now, in the new control setup, how indeed?..."who controls the input to act as on off?" What hardware do I need to go between the PC and the SSR?
 
renatoa
Top  #5 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/2025 2:53 PM
If your sensors are connected using a Phidget hub, then you can attach also a voltage output module able to drive a SSR or relay... no idea atm if Artisan PID knows how to associate this module to the burner... more homeworks needed.
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #6 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/2025 3:03 PM

Quote

renatoa wrote:

If your sensors are connected using a Phidget hub, then you can attach also a voltage output module able to drive a SSR or relay... no idea atm if Artisan PID knows how to associate this module to the burner... more homeworks needed.


OK. Will do a little homework. :-)
Clever Coffee Dripper
Grinder: Macap M4
Roaster: Completed drum roaster project photos shown here:
Photos https://goo.gl/ph...Da6K4wfqw5
Videos https://www.youtu...Bd1NrdpSUH
Build thread https://homeroast...post_38189
 
renatoa
Top  #7 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/2025 3:34 PM

Quote

oldgrumpus wrote:

OK. Will do a little homework. :-)


Was a note to myself... will do also a research, because Phidgets aren't my specialty. smile
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #8 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/2025 4:32 PM
I only have the four temperature sensor input Phidget 1048_0

For me to use an output Phidget, I will likely also need the Vint Hub Phidget in order to plug in the Output Phidget.

Correct me if I'm wrong...
 
Yasu
Top  #9 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/2025 6:36 PM
I was surprised that renatoa's explanation of Artisan was very easy to understand.
I saved it so that I can look at it if something happens.

I use RS485 MUDBUS to connect Artisan.

PC⇔USB converter (about $10) ⇔ 2-core twisted cable (RS485) ⇔ RS485 device ⇔ 4-20maorSSR drive DC

RS485 devices are
1) PID temperature controller with RS485 communication is the best, but may be a little expensive (FUJI PFX, OMRON E5EC, etc.)

2) If you are looking for an inexpensive temperature controller that can receive and send data via RS485, you can use a converter such as N4AIA04 or N4IOA01.

PC ⇒ USB converter (usb-rs485 converter about $10) ⇒ 2-core twisted cable (RS485) ⇒ N4IOA01 ⇒ 4-20ma driven SSR
I think this can be built in less than $50.

I have been using the method 1) with a temperature regulator, and I think the method 2) should be possible, but I have not been able to practice it, so I will make a simple device and experiment next time, since I think I have the circuit board and other things in a junk box.
I will try to make a simple device and experiment with it. ・・・・
Edited by Yasu on 02/11/2025 7:05 PM
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #10 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/2025 8:15 PM
Yasu, Thank you for this. I will look at it also. It is "less easy" for me to understand your notes above than Renatoa's, but only because I understand more about Phidget than the components you mention.
I am an old man (70+) and these things don't come to me easily, especially since I have no serious experience with this sort of technology.
Your method might be less expensive. The Phidget system will require about $60 USD.
Thanks again!!
Edited by oldgrumpus on 02/11/2025 8:21 PM
 
Yasu
Top  #11 Print Post
Posted on 02/11/2025 8:57 PM
I have thought about the composition.
I don't know if I can change some of the parts, since it will be the whole
But I think I can make the whole system for about $100 if I can get inexpensive parts.
Yasu attached the following images:
config3.png config4.png config6.png config1.png
Edited by Yasu on 02/11/2025 9:38 PM
 
renatoa
Top  #12 Print Post
Posted on 02/12/2025 3:01 AM

Quote

oldgrumpus wrote:

I only have the four temperature sensor input Phidget 1048_0

For me to use an output Phidget, I will likely also need the Vint Hub Phidget in order to plug in the Output Phidget.

Correct me if I'm wrong...


Yes, you need the Vint Hub.
Found here a discussion, they also seems quite unsure about how to handle... but it's a starting point...
https://www.home-...71394.html
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #13 Print Post
Posted on 02/13/2025 11:00 PM
I reached out to Phigets and they say I'm OK with the output Phidget to plug into another USB port on my PC and use an inexpensive Phidget relay. So that seems to be settled.

Now, for testing purposes, still far off, I have a question. Will I be able to use Artisan's "playback" feature to test the functionality of the new hardware? Or must these tests only happen in a real roasting scenario with real burners and so on?
 
renatoa
Top  #14 Print Post
Posted on 02/14/2025 2:40 AM
You should have a "real" temperature at least.
Maybe a probe placed in a hot air stream, from a hotgun, or inside an oven.

For TC4 this can be simulated, known protocol, already did applications that mimic a TC4 device and play any scenario I want.
For Phidgets... I am in the dark.

Also, do you clarified completely how will Artisan see and handle the seconds Phidget device?
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #15 Print Post
Posted on 02/15/2025 7:54 PM
I just ordered the Phidget components and have a plan to incorporate these devices into my roaster with the minimal addition of another "mode" switch to allow the system to be controlled by Artisan and a single, existing SSR in the system already. Thanks for helping me think this through. I will undoubtedly be asking more questions as I get the new parts installed and begin testing in a few weeks.
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #16 Print Post
Posted on 03/01/2025 8:37 PM
The parts I ordered, the USB Phidget and the voltage-out Phidget have arrived. I've managed to get these things working, but not within Artisan. I can manually control my SSR using the two Phidget components as shown in the photo with the red LED energized. This was done by simply clicking on the device properties, and enabling it, then moving the slider to the maximum output of 4.2 volts. See the photo attached.

I've also included a photo of the two components that make it happen. But this is where I begin to get lost and need guidance. See the second photo, a screen shot of the Phidgets dialog box in Artisan. Looking at the available options, I don't see my Phidget anywhere. It's not obvious to me. Am I missing something? I have many more questions, but I think the answer will allow me to get Artisan to "talk to" the output Phidget.

The Artisan website says that this particular Phidget IS SUPPORTED. So again... What am I not understanding?

Much thanks for those helping me with this! :-)
oldgrumpus attached the following images:
phidgets_2.jpg phidgets_1.jpg ssr_1.jpg
 
renatoa
Top  #17 Print Post
Posted on 03/02/2025 6:41 AM
Check this "instructable", originally done for air control, you will select burner instead.
https://artisan-r...-huky.html
 
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